A Pro-Choice Perspective
Dear readers, some of you have expressed confusion about the apparent lack of consistency between the views expressed here and the view expressed elsewhere on this site. The answer is simple: I am pro-life. My friend Julie is pro-choice. Neither of us like those terms per se, but that is the most universal way to put it. As part of this guest blogging series I invited her to share her perspective so that we can better understand each other.
~ Mommypotamus
My name is Julie, and I’m writing about the abortion debate (insert scary music). I grew up in Dallas, but have lived in New York for the past 6 years. I grew up in churches, hearing all the pro-life rallies and speakers, and always assumed I was pro-life. I have since gained other perspectives on this debate, and I now consider myself pro-choice.
One thing I have learned is that there are some major misconceptions the pro-life have about the pro-choice, and it’s hurting their cause. Until I moved to a pro-choice land, I, like many others, got all my info on the pro-choice from the pro-life. This is like asking a vegetarian for a steakhouse recommendation. So I am NOT here today to convince you to change your position.
I am here today to give you a glimpse into the heart and mind of the pro-choice movement, as is my experience of it, to dispel some misconceptions pro-lifers have, and to let you know that despite what you have been told, the pro-choice movement is not your enemy, and that we would love to work with you to reduce or even eliminate instances of abortion. I appreciate you reading this, and ask simply for an open mind and heart.
Misconception #1: Pro-choice really means pro-abortion (and “reproductive rights” is really code for “abortion rights”).
Several years ago, I read a simple quote from a pro-choice advocate that completely changed my thinking. I wish I could remember where it came from, but several Google searches have proved fruitless. The quote went something like this: “I want abortion to be perfectly safe, perfectly legal, readily available and never used.” Emphasis mine. I was so floored. Doesn’t pro-choice mean pro-abortion? That’s what I’d always been told. No, it most certainly does not. My conversations with pro-choice women and reading feminist blogs have only served to reinforce this notion. Choice means choice, and choosing to deliver the baby is a perfectly valid choice.
Misconception #2: The abortion debate is about the life of the unborn.
image by Hamed Saber
The abortion debate has never been about life; it’s about choice. Pro-choicers believe that we humans begin as an embryo at conception. It is a huge waste of energy trying to convince us of this, because we already know. There is debate about when pregnancy really begins, and I’ve also heard debate about the separateness of the unborn baby prior to viability, but my key point is that no one debates or disputes what abortion fundamentally is. The debate is about whether or not the act of abortion is morally okay. There is a difference. The history of abortion, while somewhat complex, does demonstrate one thing: societies have never agreed on the morality of abortion. This goes back as far as Roman times.
So here is my radical idea:
Let’s all stop talking about the moral issue. If history is any teacher, it shows us that we are never going to solve that dilemma satisfactorily. So let’s stop beating a dead horse and trying to convince each other that we’re wrong. Let’s instead work together to reduce the need for abortion. The truth is that we can, and we should. The truth is that it doesn’t matter whether we have the same moral value system.
We all want a better society. We all agree that abortion is a result of a less than ideal situation. So let’s work on that problem together, and get to the root cause. Trying to legally ban abortion is fruitless. Look at what has happened since banning drugs. It hasn’t reduced the demand one bit, and has only made them more dangerous; abortion will be no exception. So let’s not eliminate it through legal channels, because that will have horrible legal ramifications for all women as I will demonstrate later. Instead, let’s work to reduce the demand for it.
What the pro-choice movement is REALLY about
The pro-choice movement is not about trying to convince women to have abortions; it is about empowering women to be able to make their own reproductive choices, free from state interference, regardless of their belief system. And people who are morally opposed to abortion are perfectly welcome here. In fact, many of my pro-choice friends believe abortion is immoral and have stated they would never do it themselves. I’ve even seen several of them have VERY unintended pregnancies and keep their babies without a second thought.
“I Was Raped by the State!” –Laura Pemberton, abortion opponent and pro-choice advocate
Making abortion illegal necessarily means giving a fetus personhood status under the law (meaning it would have the same rights as any born person). This is a horrible idea. Just ask Laura Pemberton. She is a devoutly religious woman, morally opposed to abortion, who now works with pro-choice groups to fight these pro-life efforts. She has many children, one of whom was born via caesarian. On her following pregnancy, she wanted a VBAC. Her local hospital would not accommodate her, so she found a midwife and opted for a home birth.
During labor, she became dehydrated and went to the hospital for fluids. They told her she had to stay and have a c-section. She sneaked out and went back home. The hospital sent the sheriff to her house, and he literally shackled her legs together and took her back to the hospital, where she underwent the forced c-section. She sued and LOST. The hospital argued that a c-section was in the baby’s best interests, and that she had no right to decide for herself. Due to the state of Florida deciding to give a fetus personhood rights, the court agreed with the hospital, and they ruled that the fetus’ rights TRUMPED the mother’s rights! Oh yeah, and while this was happening, the hospital appointed a lawyer for the unborn baby, but not one for her. Think about that: this woman was in heavy labor, and she was forced to either find a competent lawyer right then, or represent herself. She attempted to argue her case between contractions. How well do you think she did?
Giving a fetus personhood status under the law will erode nearly ALL personal reproductive choice. Gone will be the days of home births, VBACs, refusal of petocin, refusal of sonograms and Dopplers, and midwives. Doctors will no longer be obligated to listen to you, the paying customer, but instead will have to do what is in the best interests of the unborn baby, as THEY, not you, see fit. And you know full well they can easily make a compelling argument that being “crunchy” is not in the unborn’s best interest.
Women will be investigated every time they miscarry, because they might have committed manslaughter, or even murder. If cops see an overweight woman smoking or drinking, she will be cuffed and hauled in for questioning because she might be pregnant. Do you want to be a woman in any of those scenarios? Do you want your tax dollars going to investigate a woman who just lost her pregnancy and needs to grieve? Or would you rather spend your tax dollars on police investigating real crimes, like burglary, rape, murder, and kidnapping? As you can see, the term “reproductive rights” isn’t code for “abortion rights”. It encompasses a LOT of things that are extremely important to a lot of different women. It is vital that we protect them. Making a fetus a person legally speaking may sound harmless, even virtuous, but as you can see, it’s anything but. It’s a slippery slope no one wants to slide down.
I Hear What You’re Saying, But I Still Find Abortion Morally Repugnant…
Fair enough. So what can we do to reduce/eliminate the need for abortion while keeping our reproductive rights intact? There are many things we can do, but I’m only going to focus on one avenue, because it’s not discussed openly much. Society must begin encouraging transracial adoption, particularly of African-American children. Did you know that it is cheaper to adopt a black child than a non-black child? Did you know that a Caucasian couple is 7 times more likely to want a non-black child than a black one?
Did you know that African-American children make up 1/6 of the American population, but make up 1/3 of all children in foster care? I think that’s horrible. We’ve got to start educating and encouraging people to adopt these children. I know that many in the pro-life movement champion adoption as an alternative to abortion. But that logic, while very well-intentioned, breaks down in the case of these children. They very likely won’t be adopted by a nice, wealthy, infertile couple. They will very likely rot away in the foster care system and then be turned out onto the streets at age 18. If you’re the birth mother and you know what’s likely to happen, terminating a pregnancy looks pretty good in that instance. We’ve got to make adoption a real alternative to abortion for these women. And since an African-American woman is five times more likely than a Caucasian woman to seek an abortion, this is a very important step that can make a huge difference.
Thank you so much for reading. I’m anticipating that some of you may leave me comments like, “I talked to/read about a pro-choice advocate who said such-and-such and that contradicts much of what you said.” Okay. That may be true. I certainly cannot speak for everyone affiliated with anything pro-choice. There are outliers. But I firmly believe those outliers don’t invalidate what I’ve proposed.
My point is that agreement on the morality of abortion is not a prerequisite to work together on the problems that lead women to opt for it. My point is that the pro-choice movement is working on fighting laws that will hurt women who are morally okay with and opposed to abortion, so why not join us and protect yourself and your choices too? If you are morally opposed to abortion, ask yourself this: Are you willing to give up your rights just so women can’t procure legal abortions? Or is there another way for you to protect the unborn, one that leaves both your rights and your conscience unharmed?
NOTE FROM MOMMYPOTAMUS: Leave a comment below to help Julie win the Blog For Mommypotamus and Win Your Own Blog” Contest!
But seriously, I don’t know you could grind grain.
Tina Warren
Very well-written and thought-provoking.
I could be wrong, but I believe your quote (“I want abortion to be perfectly safe, perfectly legal, readily available and never used.”) came from President Obama during the campaign–late in the campaign.
Julie
Thank you! Obama may very well have said that, wouldn’t surprise me, but I know that I read it somewhere back in spring of 2003. It was such an “AHA!!” moment for me that I actually remember when it happened!
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Matt de Oliveira
I believe Clinton said it first. He stated that abortion should be, safe, legal and rare.
Keri Duckett
THANK YOU! Born and raised in Texas, baby and birth lover…it is assumed I MUST be pro-life. Actually I don’t claim to “be” anything. I’ve been convicted for a long time that this whole debate has MUCH more to do with adoption and taking care of single moms than it does bumper stickers and picket rallies. A fire burns in me every time I see someone has joined an anti-abortion “Facebook group”, because the likelihood of those 4 thousand people ever DOING anything that actually gets to the root of the cause is slim, at best. If Jesus Christ himself were here in human form, you can bet your bottom that he would be adopting babies and loving the heck out of pregnant moms–NOT holding a sign in front of a building where his hurting and confused daughters walk past him. I’m so glad this topic–from this angle–is being approached and I truly hope that it encourages everyone to take part in offering a better choice.
Julie
Thanks so much for the comments and encouragement! I think changing the face of adoption is very key here. The cry of “Just give your baby up for adoption, don’t kill it!” rings a bit hollow when there are so many kids who aren’t getting adopted because of their race or background. I still think the intention is sound, it’s just that yelling and holding signs and joining FB groups isn’t going to help any.
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Meaghan Karthauser via Facebook
I really like that. I’m personally morally against abortion but I’ve always been pro choice. It reminds me of when I was 14 and I told my mom I wanted my belly button pierced. Of course she was horrified, but I told her if she didn’t take me to a clean, reputable piercing parlor I would do it myself and risk all kinds of nasty infection because without professional piercing equipment it would be really dangerous. I’m pretty sure that’s the best argument a 14 year old has ever come up with to get piercings.
In any case my mom consented in spite of being morally against it because it was safer than me doing it myself. and if i wanted it bad enough I would do it myself.
Making things illegal just takes away the government’s right to regulate it and ensure it’s done safely…and the sad fact is regardless of our moral standing on the issue some women will want it and many want it bad enough that they will go to unsafe and underground places that will cause them all kinds of other harm.
The author touched on the drug issue…but it’s the same. I’m VERY morally opposed to it but making them legal would shut down a lot of unsafe practices and end a lot of organized crime.
Anyway great article!
Greg
Your mom should have let you do it and suffer the consequences of your actions.
Heather
I’m headed out for the morning so I’m going to have to respond in several parts
First . . . ouch!!! You’re so right about the general unwillingness of Christians to consider adoption much of the time . . . I know I am guilty of not wanting to “go there.” Daniel and I have talked about adoption and are actually open to it, but my biggest concern is that children from low-income areas are statistically less likely to have had good prenatal nutrition and more likely to have been exposed to drugs/alcohol/vaccines before I get them. I know that may seem like a pretty shallow reason not to be open to any child, but I have to be real and say I am concerned about getting a child that has serious behavioral problems because of these factors. I’m worried I won’t be up to the task, won’t be able to bond . . . something.
Maybe I am just becoming aware of it, but I do think there is a shift in how some Christians are approaching the issue, though. Katie went to a birthday party last weekend where several of the families have adopted children from other races despite the fact that the adoptive parents are not infertile (they have biological kids, nice homes, nice jobs, etc.) One of the moms mentioned that Focus on the Family is doing some kind of national campaign to encourage adoption for exactly this reason.
I wish I could say for sure what we will do as a family, but I don’t know. Whether or not we adopt, I feel compelled to do SOMETHING . . . a mentoring program, volunteering, financial support toward families that are adopting . . . not sure what exactly this will look like, but you get the idea.
Like I wrote about in my post about whether or not the pill causes abortion, it is easier to be against abortion when it requires no personal sacrifice (like having to give up the convenience of the pill).
Julie
Thanks for the comments! I don’t necessarily think the answer is that everyone, infertile or not, must go out and adopt a child. It’s a huge task and it’s not for everyone. I honestly don’t know if I’d be cut out for it either. But then again, I assume I’m fertile. If I discovered someday that I wasn’t, adoption would probably look a bit different.
I think what’s important is that you want to do SOMETHING, even if it’s not an actual adoption. That’s very commendable, and I believe that’s what is going to make a positive difference in the end. I feel the same way, really: I cannot say for sure that I would or would not adopt a child right now, fertile or not. But I can say that I want to do something to increase awareness of this issue and help people in need.
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Heather
Daniel and I talk about adoption at least once a week, but I feel like when I tell people that they expect we are going to adopt tomorrow. The truth is, I would love to open my home as a foster parent to “test the waters,” but I am hesitant to submit myself to gov’t scrutiny. I have heard too many horror stories of families that tried to reach out as foster parents and ended up having social workers constantly meddling in their personal lives. Considering how many non-traditional choices I make I feel very vulnerable opening my family up to scrutiny. It’s very frustrating, because I would REALLY like to give it a try.
Julie
I think it’s awesome that you’re so open to the possibility. I’ve heard horror stories too, but many times it depends on the particular case worker you get, and you can ask for a switch. Also, if you give it a few years, child services will see that even though you’re non-traditional, you’re raising two well-adjusted, happy, loved children of your own, and they will be a great testament. Keep doing research on it. My bet would be that you will find other non-traditional families that have fostered or adopted, too. At least I hope you would!
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Heather
Thanks, Julie. For the record, while I totally agree that yelling at each other is not getting us anywhere and that we CAN AND SHOULD work together to reduce the number of abortions currently taking place, I will also always work toward the enacting of laws that protect human life. To me, they are people . . . I can’t ignore them.
Joanna Moore
this is a very challenging post! thanks for putting yourself out there in the line of fire. i’m definitely going to have to rethink my perspective now! while i remain strongly anti-abortion (even in the case of rape, and also anti-Pill), i certainly wouldn’t want all women to lose their rights of choosing how and where they deliver the babies they decide to give birth to, or incriminated for having a miscarriage. i never thought about “choice” in those terms, so thanks for pointing those things out! it’s a very shaky line though, that’s for sure. i also agree that we pro-lifers should definitely be more pro-active and put our money where our mouth is (start doing things like adopting these “inconvenient, unwanted” babies to eliminate abortion.
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Julie
Thank you so much, I am encouraged by your comments! I hope I didn’t imply that everyone should go out and adopt an African-American child regardless of their circumstances in life, because that’s not what I meant to say. What I’m saying is that there are a lot of infertile couples out there, many of whom choose adoption. But they overlook the black children. They wait for years on a Caucasian infant and pay a lot more money (that may or may not have been disposable income). They are cheaper to adopt because they are unwanted. There’s a stigma there, and my hope is that society can get past that and start giving these kids a home. That way, the adoption alternative to abortion will apply to all women, not just some.
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Rose
Part of the problem about black children going unadopted is political. The racism doesn’t all reside with parents considering adoption. There is at least as much racism in the ranks of social workers, many of whom assume, witout investigating, that black children in white homes will suffer in some way. Allegedly, they will be denied thier heritage, and feel a loss of identity. I say, nonsense, humans are humans, and children raised without parents DO demonstrably suffer a loss of heritage and of identity.
“Race” is an artificial construct, intended to suggest that people of different colors are different species, like Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal are supposed to be different species than self-congratulatory group who call themselves Homo Sapiens sapiens. It all goes back (do your homework) to the time of Darwin. Blacks, criminals, and others were seen as “throwbacks” to an earlier stage of evolution. I’ve seen some of that in the early works of detective fiction, in which a good many police officers felt certain that a man with a beetling brow or “ape-like” jaw must be guilty of something.
So, one thing pro this and pro that could agree on and work together for is to outlaw racist adoption policy. I do not think we should require a couple ot adopt a black or mixed child when they feel unsure of their ability to parent such a child well. I just think we should not prevent people who do feel up to the task from adopting children who don’t look just like them.
One of my childhood favorite books was “The Family Nobody Wanted.” It tells of a pastor and his wife who adopt one baby, carefully selected by an adoption agency a sa perfect match, and then love the experience so much they want to adopt another. They are told, “You already got one; don’t be greedy. Adoptable blond white children are rare!” So, they said they would be happy to adopt a child who was not “perfect.” They eventually adopted many children, of various “races”, mixed “race” children, children with severe disfigurements, disabled children, and they fostered some children who were in adoption limbo.
I wanted to do the same thing! However, my husband was not so enthusiastic, and besides, I’m anything but a clean freak, and I too have made unconventional choices. I’ve even been harrassed in my home, in the presence of my three natural children, by social workers because neighbors were offended at my choices. Home school, thrifty living, not celebrating Halloween for moral reasons are all highly suspect choices, and that was before I became a “fanatical” environmentalist.
So, to conclude, we can all fight for color-blind adoption laws. I believe that it would also be better if the standards for adopting were not quite so stringent about minor things, like the number of bedrooms. (If sharing a bedroom is tramuatic, maybe that is why I am not a neat-freak?) Instead, the focus should be on truely relevant things like whether the couple are emotionally stable, have solid roots in the community, have family support, and so on.
Lynsey Sparks Stone via Facebook
GREAT article, thanks so much for posting it!
Penny
Oh thank goodness. I also moved from the land of pro-life to pro-choice, and sometimes it’s so hard to make pro-lifers see that we ARE on the same side. I don’t know one person that is a fan of abortion. It’s a tragedy, from all sides. Everyone wants abortion to not happen, we just disagree on the method. It’s not a workable solution to ban abortion – that won’t end it. So what does work? Preventing unplanned pregnancies in the first place, encouraging fatherhood, equipping teens to make good decisions, etc. For me, I do get frustrated with pro-lifers because I feel they often don’t put action to their words. You can’t just say “Well, give your child up for adoption”… because – as you said – they will likely time out of foster care. Also, you can’t refuse to teach your child about safe sex and be surprised if an unplanned pregnancy occurs. It’s pure biology. For me, I am most frustrated by people of any sort who blind themselves to workable solutions. If it’s not going to happen, if it’s not going to work – come up with a new solution. I’ll say it again – we are all on the same side… working together will provide what we all want: fewer unplanned pregnancies, fewer abortions, fewer children rotting in foster care, and more children with loving parents and a home.
Julie
Thanks so much! It is eye-opening to move from one area of the country to the other, isn’t it? I’ve learned so much and been surprised by a lot too!
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Whittney
Hmm…while I love the idea of transracial adoption as a solution, I think there is a much more important avenue to consider. If our society valued family, marriage and children like I believe Jesus wants and the Bible teaches, abortion numbers would drop considerably! If our young people respected themselves enough to wait until marriage to have sex, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies. If families remained intact and parents were involved and the home Spirit-filled, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies. If children were considered a blessing from the Lord instead of an inconvenience, there would be fewer abortions. I’m not living under a rock and have worked with pregnant women considering abortion/adoption/parenting. I have spoken to countless women in total despair about being pregnant and certainly we need to wrap our arms around them and guide them. BUT, I don’t think it is time to throw in the towel in regard to the root of the problem. Most (but certainly not all) abortions are the result of sex outside of marriage…whether the woman is young or old. Wouldn’t a revolution in America to preserve the traditional family decrease the number of abortions greatly? I love that you tackled this topic with an open heart and a desire to serve woman and children in need. I agree that the fighting between pro-life and pro-choice accomplishes nothing a good deal of the time.
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Julie
I’m assuming you don’t intend it this way, but your words are going to be considered “fighting words” because you are moralizing the situation. What I’m writing about here is ending the moral debate, because society is never going to agree on that aspect of things. I am not advocating throwing in the towel – quite the opposite in fact. If you continue to dig in your heels and insist that everyone adopting your beliefs are the only way to reduce abortion, then you’ll get nowhere. That’s my overall point.
On a side note, children are not always a blessing. I am living proof of that. Not everyone is cut out for parenthood.
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Daniel
I’m going to strongly disagree with you there, Julie. Scripture says, “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.”
Blessings are not like Christmas presents. If God calls children a blessing, then they are a blessing. I could give you a million dollars with no strings attached, but if you had been burned by false generosity before, you might not trust me or appreciate the money. You might see it as a curse because you’ve seen lottery winners go bankrupt and die of depression.
A person’s flawed understanding of the world does not determine whether each baby is precious and a priceless blessing. Salvation is a blessing. It’s a free gift. Many people don’t accept it or want it. Doesn’t prevent it from being the greatest blessing in the history of the universe.
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Daniel
I think to be more precise, what you meant to say is that children are not always wanted. There’s a pretty huge difference between saying a child is unwanted by his/her parents and saying he/she isn’t a blessing.
Daniel´s last [type] ..Why Don’t You Use Thesis Since You Promote It
Daniel
One implies a serious flaw in the parents. The other implies a flaw in the child. The former is accurate. The latter is not.
Daniel´s last [type] ..Why Don’t You Use Thesis Since You Promote It
Julie
I think a lot of this is a semantics issue. I would wholeheartedly agree with the last thing you said. There is most certainly a flaw with the parents, not the child. I agree children are precious and should be cherished, uplifted, loved, accepted unconditionally, etc. But you cannot convince someone that they are being blessed when a child may be something they never wanted, or didn’t want at the time of the pregnancy. That’s why adoption is so important. I hope it becomes a real alternative for all women, not just for some.
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Daniel
I thought I understood what you were saying, Julie. But I wanted to clarify because there are hundreds of people who will read this post who might not automatically know what you meant.
Sometimes the most meaningful blog comments are not those making a unique point, but clarifying what has already been said so that others can follow the train of thought.
Thanks!
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Whittney
You’re right that I don’t want them to be fighting words…and I am moralizing the situation. When I think more about that, I can’t separate my morals and this issue and I don’t think a person should separate them. I don’t believe that following the plan I stated will is the ONLY way to reduce abortion, I just believe that is the most important avenue to consider. My beliefs are based on Biblical truth. Avoiding the moral aspect of this issue means I am removing the Bible from my opinion and I don’t believe that is OK. Ditto what Daniel said about children being a blessing.
Whittney´s last [type] ..Sunday at the Movies – “Goodnight Boy”
Justyn
I agree with you, Whittney. People who don’t want to acknowledge that our Creator has the ultimate say in all things will try to avoid “moralizing” a topic. The ONLY way for things to really change is for people’s hearts to change, and that takes God.
No abortion should be funded by the tax-payers, but most are to some extent.
Julie, there are some huge assumptions in your logic that skew your reasoning. First, I don’t recall you mentioning that most abortions use MY money. My rights ARE being violated, because my money is being used to slaughter those babies. (Capital letters are for emphasis, I’m not “yelling” at you.
Secondly, law can be made that is directed ONLY at doctors, making it illegal for them to provide abortions. As long as no laws are made in reference to the mother seeking to kill her baby, the doctor would be the one prosecuted. There is no reason that the baby has to be legally identified in the law as a living person for the abortion procedure to be made illegal.
Thirdly, home-birth and other “reproductive choices” are ALREADY threatened and need to be protected separately from the abortion issue. I have chosen to have a home-birth with a midwife in a few months, but where I live there have been a few… I guess you could call them “witch hunts” targeting midwives and moms, so I am working hard to support the freedom to choose to give birth outside of a hospital. Fighting for the right to birth at home in no way requires that I have the right to murder this little person inside of me.
Fourthly, saying that something should be legal, but never used is also illogical. Consider that abortion is murder. You said we all agree on that, right? So, why shouldn’t it be legal to murder you, if somebody felt it was a “need” (you said repeatedly “the need of abortion”)? Maybe I should make this two different points, but a “need” to murder a child I helped create?! It is NOT a “need”, it is a convenience. Using your logic, all crimes should be legal, but we should meet the criminals “needs” somehow so that they won’t commit the crimes. If a man has a sexual “need”, then rape should be legal, but he should rape you because you will do your American duty to somehow make sure that his “need” is met… take any crime you like, unless the criminal’s heart is changed, your efforts will be ineffective.
There are so many more problems with the pro-choice logic, but I am out of time. The point is, as long as people are having sex without being able and willing to carry, birth and raise the natural consequences, there will be abortion, legal or otherwise. Having it supported by the government and my money is not an acceptable situation.
Justyn
*oops, sorry, BIG typo! At the end there I meant to say “he should NOT rape you…” Sorry about that!
Keri Duckett
I would like to argue that it isn’t children that aren’t the blessing, its single motherhood or unprepared parents. I believe children in and of themselves are always going to be a blessing to someone. I could definitely agree that single or teenage motherhood or unprepared families can most certainly NOT be a blessing. At least this is what I would tell my child (blood or adopted) if that statement were told to them.
Keri Duckett
Daniel, totally agree with you, BUT that’s because I believe in the Bible and claim the truths it holds. Many people don’t. We have to find ways to approach this issue with common ground, finding what we all DO commonly believe, which is that there should be fewer abortions. Her whole point is basically that we have to stop approaching this assuming that everyone else believes what we believe, because most of the time it gets us nowhere. I don’t mean to speak for you Julie please correct me if I’m wrong.
Penny
For me, I totally agree with you. Getting into moral/theological discussions doesn’t really get anybody anywhere and distracts from the goal: Prevent abortions and fostercare children. It’s easy to get hung up on vocabulary and hyperbole. The second step is, what are we going to do to prevent abortions/unplanned pregnancies/children without homes? And is your idea workable? (For instance, some people might say their method is to convert everyone to a certain faith or get all teens to just not have sex. To speak a truth that’s hard for many to hear…that’s not really practical.)
Julie
Thank you Keri and Penny, this is EXACTLY my point. Finding common ground and achieving an overall goal. You both said it beautifully.
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Daniel
No arguments there, Keri. I’m a stickler for precision, because conversations are won or lost based on mutual understanding.
There’s a huge difference between the reality of a child being a blessing and a parent subjectively seeing that child as a blessing.
I want people to know where Julie is coming from more than I’m concerned about addressing how we talk to people in public simply because the people who visit and read this need to understand her clearly in order to decide whether they want to communicate with her or agree with her.
Daniel´s last [type] ..Why Don’t You Use Thesis Since You Promote It
Julie
Agreed and appreciated! Children are not always *perceived* as blessings, but a child being abandoned or abused doesn’t invalidate their worth as a human being. I think the colloquial meaning of blessing is subjective – in that whether something is a blessing is in the eye of the beholder. Whereas you are meaning the word blessing to describe a person’s worth as a human, which is something that is not the least bit subjective. I was meaning the word blessing in the colloquial, subjective sense, not the biblical sense you are referencing. Thanks for clarifying.
Julie´s last [type] ..A Culinary Trip Around the World to Places Id Rather Not Visit
Daniel
We probably all don’t disagree much at this point. The challenge in holding this conversation is clarifying our points, acknowledging good points made by others, and harmonizing them until we reach a unified stance that is stronger than each of our individual stances were before the conversation began.
Daniel´s last [type] ..Meet My Baby Boy
Daniel
I don’t mean to overload the comment stream, but the major point i see needing clarification/further discussion is how to best reach and love and help women who have unwanted pregnancies.
On the one hand, there’s an argument that says the biblical morality-based outreach method isn’t helping, but rather harming. On the other hand, there’s the argument that says without biblical morals, we lack the power to bring real change.
I think the answer is that the God-based outreach method needs to be severely transformed to be effective the way God and women in need want it to be effective. We can’t remove our morals or pretend they don’t exist.
But this is why we need a marriage of compassion and truth. Without truth (including morality), we bail people out of their problems and set them up to make the same mistakes again. It is an irresponsible parent who solves all his children’s problems because he loves them and doesn’t want them to experience loss or hardship.
On the flipside, without loving compassion, truth is harsh, judgmental, and impossible to live up to. We try to hold people to a standard that doesn’t allow for mistakes and we have no viable solution for people who make mistakes.
Both options fail to produce the desired outcome: parents being loved and healed and restored and children being loved, provided for, raised to be responsible, loving, and godly adults and future parents.
Truth without love condemns and kills. Love without truth pacifies, enables, and corrupts.
I don’t think Jesus laid aside His morals to love people. But his love was a purer quality than ours often is. Sometimes our “love” is trying to force-mold people into our agendas. Jesus’ love was so freeing and without condemning judgment that prostitutes, cheaters, and philanderers felt valued, loved, and inspired to repent from old wicked ways.
I’m just blabbing now, but this post has inspired me to write another post. Maybe I’ll sum it up better there.
Daniel´s last [type] ..Meet My Baby Boy
Whittney
Love this Daniel!
Whittney´s last [type] ..Sunday at the Movies – “Goodnight Boy”
Julie
To clarify: I am not advocating anyone forget their morals or separate themselves from them. I don’t really even think that’s possible. We are all entitled to our moral position/opinion. What I am saying is that when agreeing on the moral issue becomes a prerequisite, everybody loses. Nothing gets accomplished. Absolutely keep your morals intact. Just don’t let them become weapons. Be mindful that not everyone shares them, and that doesn’t have to kill the opportunity to work together towards a common goal.
Daniel, I’ll be excited to read that blog if you get to write it!
Whittney: you are so correct in that there are more ways to solve this than just increasing transracial adoption. I only wrote about that one because 1) I had limited space available, and 2) it’s not talked about much. I appreciate your comments. I may not agree with the vision you have put forth, but I see your heart and your compassion so clearly.
Julie´s last [type] ..A Culinary Trip Around the World to Places Id Rather Not Visit
Heather
Well said!
Riley
“It is an irresponsible parent who solves all his children’s problems because he loves them and doesn’t want them to experience loss or hardship.”
-This single statement is the beginning of true wisdom in parenting! Many of our parents didn’t get it- and others left us completely to ourselves to fend until 6 o’clock.
There is an art to holding and releasing power for the purpose of teaching and a lack of transfer of wisdom has occurred between recent generations that has caused the lack of reverence and respect for elders that was such a strong theme in generations past. I don’t want to high-jack the conversation, but I totally think you should post a blog on this. I think this one principle could open the eyes of a great portion of parents who are losing touch with their kids and feeling lost about it. LOVE then Freedom to Fail. It’s an amazing concept!
Julie
The fact is this: abortion ends an innocent life. It is murder. We don’t compromise with the murder of our neighbors by saying that we don’t need to make it illegal we just need to reduce the number of murders. The government should not have a legal right to allow a person to kill another. The baby killed by an abortion is not concerned with the number of abortions being reduced. Their life is over.
And by saying that making abortion illegal would get rid of other woman’s rights is, I believe, a scare tactic. That is why we have laws that clearly state what is legal and illegal. If a woman wanted to leave the hospital, as in your case, that could easily be included in our health laws. We have laws for everything in this country. To say that we shouldn’t make abortion illegal because that could happen is like saying we shouldn’t make child abuse illegal because then a parent might not be able to discipline their child appropriately. Laws aren’t perfect but we have a system set up to work on any issues that might arise. There are a lot of issues that have arised because of laws and wording etc. but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have the laws.
I also feel that by saying pro-life people aren’t caring about the woman is inaccurate. Every pro-life person I know prays for those women and spiritually adopts those babies and we have fundraisers for women’s resource centers, diaper drives, counseling, free ultrasounds. Pro-life people praying outside abortion clinics are praying for those women and those babies. They ARE trying to take care of both. No persons situation is that bad that they should take another human beings life. We do need to support and offer assistance and help. But we need to do it for both lives involved. So many women have abortions thinking it is their only option only to go on to regret it. You can’t take back ending a life.
Heather
Julie – You make some very insightful points here. Thank you for joining the conversation.
Kelly F.
I like this, Julie! Good points.
Kelly F.´s last [type] ..A Camper at the land
Ava
Julie, I think you and many other people need a reality check. I don’t know what country you live in, but the United States of America is famous for taking things the extra mile. By saying that “making abortion illegal would get rid of other woman’s rights is… a scare tactic.” only makes you sound like you haven’t even really considered the issue.
Not saying that you are particularly guilty of being this way… but -as a Christian myself- the fact that I get lumped in with so many of the people in my own religion who talk and act so hatefully, ignorantly, or flippantly about other peoples lives and think that it is okay and in line with God… that disgusts me.
The truth is, our law system is not only imperfect but it is deeply flawed -as anyone who has been a lawyer, mediator, social worker, or other person involved in the justice system could tell you. Consider the ramifications of your statement.
First, you seem to assume that the law is fairly practiced everywhere, and evidence from the case law of the past… well, recorded history, in the United States and ALL preceding justice systems would completely blow that assumption out of the water. Not everyone can afford a lawyer in the first place, and sometimes having a public defender (if you are allowed one) is worse than having none. So your “law is the solution” idea holds no water. “Put not your trust in princes or mortal men, in whom there is no salvation.” Psalm 146:3.
Second of all, all the so-called “support” you just mentioned for the single mothers is a joke. Pretty promises, prayers for the mother and child, “spiritual” adoption, honestly?? No wonder nobody with a logical brain cell outside the faith can take religious individuals seriously, its FLUFF. As in there are no ACTIONS being taken.
Diapers are great, but I don’t remember being able to eat them. Prayers are great, but they are also intangible and inedible with no cash value. And spiritual adoption is not a physical one, nor does it take care of the mother or child’s needs or really do anything but make YOU feel satisfied with the fact that you’ve done… oh yes… Nothing.
Remember the parable of the good Samaritan? THAT is what we are supposed to stand for! Did the Samaritan try to convert the poor bastard that was on the side of the road beaten nearly to death? NO. Did he pray for him? NO. Did he “spiritually adopt him” or do a bandage raising charity event for him? NO. Did he try to educate him on the dangers of the roads in the area or blame him for taking that path in the first place? NO. He stepped up and helped him and continued to help him after rescuing him initially, regardless of his religion or lack thereof.
Regardless of his creed, color, mistakes, his willingness to hear the Samaritan message, his money or his orientation. The man on the side of the road could have been anyone. The Samaritan didn’t stop to check if he was a Jew, Gentile, or the same faith as he. Neither should you when helping your fellow man, or woman in this case. He never seems to have thought about its “convenience” or whether a long term commitment was needed. He KNEW he had done nothing real unless he took care of him til the man was truly healed and able to get on his own two feet and go on with his life. But one thing is for sure, he didn’t help him because it felt good or was on his schedule or wouldn’t cause him any economic hardship… he did it because it was the right thing to do. The Samaritan did not abandon the man he rescued after doing his good deed for the day… he kept at it until he was able to be healthy and ready to be on his own. That is what we should be doing for our single mothers.
A good place to start for everyone who is talking on this issue is to stop and examine themselves. They need to stop acting like they know things they do not.
“No persons situation is that bad that they should take another human beings life.” Really? Do tell me how you would know that? Ya’ll seem like a nice middle-class white people, you should know all about real hardship -do I really need to roll my eyes here or do you get the point?
By the way, if you really believe that statement above then what about the death penalty? Pulling the plug on someone in a vegetative state? Killing in self-defense? Oh but that’s different? Is it?
You do not know what kind of terrible lives some people have. You cannot even conceive of them, because you have not lived them or around them yourself. You have likely never had to starve, nearly to the brink of death as more than a sixth of the worlds population has at some point or another. You have never had to sleep on a park bench or under a causeway or sewer on a deeply cold night. Exposed to the elements, roaming animals, and knows who or what else fearing for your life, your health, your safety… feeling the cold creeping down to your bones… unable to ask anyone for help because the shelters were too full tonight and no one wants to help you.
Now think about that same situation… with a baby growing inside you. Depending on you for its health and life and ability to survive after its birth. And you’re telling me you have the right to MAKE a person in that situation keep the baby? Risking their life AND their child’s needlessly and with little to no possibility of successfully bringing the child to term, having a healthy baby, or raising the child themselves?
Never mind the instances of rape, incest, possible honor killings, mental illness, physical defects, economic hardships, health difficulties, abuse in the home, and many other factors. You’re telling me that’ll all just go away?
Oh and this is the kicker. That same religious orientation that you say is so important has some of the highest instances of deviant or abusive behaviors in the home, it’s fundimentalist religion that is half of the cause of these abortion issues.
One of the biggest contributors to high abortion rates is poor sexual education. Answer me this, if you don’t even know what sex is then can you avoid it? I have met “religious” parents who have not even told their kids that sex exists and whenever they ask where babies come from they -at best- hear some lie about a stork or that sex is bad and they should never do it. Are you telling me that’s okay? That its not setting them up for failure and deep sexual issues for the rest of their lives? That the lack of knowledge will help them if some predator who knows their stuff gets a hold of them and makes sure they are too confused or ashamed to even tell their parents about the weird thing that happened to them that they don’t even have a word for.
Experience life outside your sheltered little street, deal with hardships others face by going out and actually doing something to help, do some reading, grow some empathy… then we can talk about the ways we should approach solving or at least curbing the need for abortion. ‘Til then, not only are you being flat-out un-Christian by throwing out these unsubstantial or flat-out naive statements, but you are hurting others with your carelessness or outright ignorance and dragging other Christians down with you. Don’t leave your God-given brains at the door on moral issues.
dianthe
great post!! the primary reason i am so strongly pro-choice is because of one of the reasons you mentioned – allowing the government to decide whether a woman has the right to terminate her pregnancy is just the first step on them taking control of the rest of her reproductive rights – where, when and how she can give birth, birth control decisions, how many children she can have – it’s just the beginning – i wouldn’t want the government telling me that i couldn’t terminate my pregnancy anymore than i want them telling me that i should
i also agree with your point about the morality of abortion – the 2 sides will never come to an agreement, so instead of arguing we should be looking for more options that prevent that decision from ever having to be made!
dianthe´s last [type] ..you’re doing WHAT
Julie
Thanks so much! I agree, government involvement in this arena is such a slippery slope. Let’s hope we never have to find out how far they could take it.
Julie´s last [type] ..A Culinary Trip Around the World to Places Id Rather Not Visit
Elisabeth
I really appreciate your posting this. I come from a similar place as this writer – having assumed for most of my life I was pro-life, then coming to reconsider that assumption. It’s refreshing to hear her voice.
I also was flabbergasted when I heard about Laura Pemberton’s story, which I first read about in the extremely disturbing, but worthwhile, book, *Pushed* by Jennifer Block. It’s about mothers’ rights (or lack thereof) to choose how to deliver their babies.
Julie
Thanks for the comment! I have never heard of that book, but I will definitely be reading it now. I first read of Pemberton’s story in the book “The Purity Myth” by Jessica Valenti, then I did some more research for this post. It’s just unbelievable what happened to that poor woman!
Julie´s last [type] ..A Culinary Trip Around the World to Places Id Rather Not Visit
Riley
Has anyone ever been able to find a similar story? Or is it really just one woman one time? I’d be very interested to know if it was fabricated (as was Roe) and the specifics of why she was brought back to the hospital! I know for a fact that you can’t leave a hospital with an IV because the law requires you to be in the care of a doctor, so the doctor or a nurse would have to have removed it and if they didn’t and she left with anything still in her arm, the baby has nothing to do with the story at all. The sheriff brought her back because of a law involving IVs. The nurse would not have removed one if she was in the hospital and planning to deliver because they don’t like to stick more than once. And since they no longer leave needles under your skin, it would have been far more comfortable to have left it in than to get restuck. Nobody has mentioned her electrolyte levels or any other medical statement of fact to show that she (was/ was not) in need of a doctor’s care. From the level of information in these posts, and the fact that nobody has talked about anyone else with a similar story, I HAVE to believe that there is some other extenuating circumstance in play here. Mental case, hysterical, known offender of some type, being treated for depression or MP, dehydrated, allergic reaction, etc… there’s no indication that says she would have been released if not pregnant, so I don’t believe she would have been released if she wasn’t pregnant…. can you offer a hundred other cases that are different with the same key elements?
Jolee Burger
Julie, you probably have gotten braver since moving from Texas! I feel like this is a taboo topic here – just as discussing Obama prior to the election was taboo… People had to meet in secret to feel heard.
I feel like you are making a very logical argument, and I think that it makes a lot of sense. “Let’s all work together” never seems to get very far because it is in politicians’ best interest to keep our country divided, and this issue is a supreme divider. I think in ALL issues, if we would all just talk to one another, we could probably find lots and lots of common ground, but instead we only want to focus on the differences (because Glen Beck, Bill Maher, or our pastors divide us and encourage us to do it).
Thank you for posting this perspective!! I happen to agree with every single word you said.
Penny
I love this. I really have a hard time when people bring up war and fighting analogies, because it just alienates everyone and… we all lose. There is no war other than the one we create – we all want children to grow up loved and well-cared for… so let’s work together to make that happen. Many of our leaders unfortunately encourage a culture of fear, suspicion and trumped-up charges. It’s frustrating – if people would just listen to each other – discuss instead of fight… we’d get a whole farther to actually HELPING. I get this picture in my mind of people fighting amongst each other, while the people who actually need the help are getting ignored so that we can feel intelligent and debate ideology.
Julie
Hi Jolee, thanks for the comment! It’s been so eye-opening to move to NY, I’ve gained new perspectives on many issues. Not that I’ve changed my mind about everything, but it has been fascinating to see what “the other side” really thinks.
I really dislike all the division that goes on in our country. Most of us have way more in common than we realize. And it’s also refreshing to realize that we don’t have to agree about everything, even the big things. We can still find common ground, and we can still be courteous and compassionate towards each other. And that begets respect.
Julie´s last [type] ..A Culinary Trip Around the World to Places Id Rather Not Visit
Meredith
I am assuming that the post (8 posts up from this one) was written by a different “Julie?” I agree very strongly with what she said. And while I understand the idea of taking down labels of “pro-life” and “pro-choice,” and digging more into the issue of prevention and reconciling a bad situation, I don’t think you will ever convince me to support or understand a group that offeres a choice of killing an innocent baby. While in the world’s eyes, you make a vaild point, biblically, its just not an option.
And while I agree with some of the things you said, and while I understand that many pro-life supporters over-generalize the belief system of pro-choice-ers, I think you need to be careful you don’t lump pro-life supporters in a box either. I grew up with five adopted siblings, of all different races, and there are many of us out there doing our parts. My husband and I would love to adopt an African-American child, but we have been met with comments like “cultural differences” and “un-fit race enviornment.” Some of us ARE trying, it is just not as easy as many might think.
Meredith´s last [type] ..I wish we all could be cartoons
Julie
Thanks! You’re absolutely right, adopting “cross-culturally” as you put it is not easy and there are roadblocks that should not be there, in my opinion. I studied this in law school and was so saddened by how hard it can be. I hope in time those blocks will come down. I hope there is more awareness in the future of how many African-American kids are rotting away in the foster care system and that it’s a major problem in our society. I really commend and respect you for wanting to adopt this way, it’s very inspiring. Please, tell everyone what you’re doing! And major kudos to your parents, how awesome!
Julie´s last [type] ..A Culinary Trip Around the World to Places Id Rather Not Visit
Kelly F.
I’m with you, Meredith.
Kelly F.´s last [type] ..A Camper at the land
Heather
Me, too!
Mae
Thanks for saying what I wanted to say in a much more mature manner, Meredith
Mae´s last [type] ..My Life in Bullets
Joy
Thank you for this post, you so perfectly describe my perspective on this issue. We we will have greater success if we fight for a with/for a cause rather than stand against something. While I personally wouldn’t ever choose abortion as an option, I am convinced that I, and not a stranger or politician, should always have the final word in my own reproductive rights. I believe that we will not succeed if we try to coerce others to comply to a religious/morally based perspective regarding sex outside of marriage, birth control and most importantly abortion – especially if others are not religious to begin with. If we take a strong Biblical stance when trying to convince those who do not subscribe to our beliefs or Theological interpretations of the Bible then we often fail. Very simply, if I knew someone only spoke Dutch I wouldn’t speak Spanish to them and then get angry when they didn’t understand my directions. The same metaphor applies here.
Premarital sex and unplanned pregnancies are a reality, and abortions will continue to happen whether we like it or not, even if it becomes illegal. 75% of babies born in the African American community are born to single mothers, 50% in the Hispanic community and 25% among Caucasians – this speaks volumes about where our greatest need for education and prevention live. We would do well to offer more holistic sex education that is beyond abstinence only, greater understanding and availability of birth control options (outside of the controversial Planned Parenthood) and equal access to well-women visits for all young ladies rather than pound that well-worn book of “abortion is murder!” Again, Julie, thank you for your perspective and courageous voice.
Julie
Joy, thanks so much for your kind words! I LOVE what you said about how it’s much better to work for something instead of against something. I think that’s so important. Working against something is exhausting! I really appreciate the single mother statistics too. The whole thing is just very well said!
Julie´s last [type] ..A Culinary Trip Around the World to Places Id Rather Not Visit
Abbey
Thank you for posting! This sums up exactly how I feel. Wonderfully written! Heather, one of my best friends is going through the foster process right now and she is very much an ‘alternative’ parent too…it’s going to be interesting! She’ll be set up to get her first baby sometime after Christmas.
Julie
Thank you Abbey! And CONGRATS to your friend!!! She will be in my prayers.
Julie´s last [type] ..A Culinary Trip Around the World to Places Id Rather Not Visit
Heather
That’s awesome, Abbey! If she doesn’t mind you passing along her contact info I would love to keep up with how it goes for her. (You can email it to me via the contact form at http://www.mommypotamus.com/about/contact/)
Whittney
Meredith, your comment is what I wished I had written! It is perfect.
Whittney´s last [type] ..Sunday at the Movies – “Goodnight Boy”
Mae
So here’s the deal.
When I saw your topic I told myself under no circumstances would I comment because I knew your post would be controversial and win by default and I wanted no part of that. [I'm overly competitive when I don't have to be about....98% of the time]
But I have to say, I have never heard this position before. Not because I’m uneducated, uncultured, or ignorant, but because I’ve received the opposite position from the thousands of self proclaimed pro-lifers that I have argued, cried, prayed, and on occasion agreed with.
There’s lots I want to say, and lots of discussion I would like to continue with some of the conversations already going on here, I’d just like to say/ask two things.
Thank you for being brave enough to write this. You know what reasons qualify your bravery, so I won’t continue to go in to it. I wish I had written Meredith’s response because that’s exactly how I feel. I also come from a mother who was threatened every day of her pregnancy bc she didn’t abort me, but never saw her decision as “pro-choice” I guess I can understand that.
Secondly, I want to know what you think about the new law in New York that allows unmarried couples and gay couples to adopt. I think it’s brilliant and will hopefully alleviate some of the strain on “the system” and give more children loving homes. I’d love to know what you think.
Mae´s last [type] ..My Life in Bullets
Julie
Woohoo, Mae is here!! I was actually gonna be a little sad if you didn’t comment.
First of all, your poor mom! Was this her classmates at the time? Geez…
Secondly, I haven’t studied the new NY law in depth or anything, but I’m in agreement with it. I also hope it will alleviate some system strain, and more importantly give some children some loving homes. And I think it will. I don’t like to bag on single parents. I don’t think marital status makes you a good parent per se. I have some girlfriends who are single moms, and they’re great.
I hope you did not interpret my post as asking people to “support” a stance they find morally repugnant. Neither side should have to do that. I would never ask a pro-lifer to say, give money to NOW, any more than I would give money to Focus on the Family. My point is that the two sides spend so much time and energy trying to convince the other that they’re wrong. And this is a huge waste, because neither side will ever become convinced. There are real people out there and they’re not being helped by us hurling quotes from the Bible and Roe v. Wade at each other. That’s all.
So glad you commented!
Julie´s last [type] ..A Culinary Trip Around the World to Places Id Rather Not Visit
RIta Miller
I am going to point out that most of the blowback against trans-racial adoption comes from the black community. Increasing access will not remove the stigma. The differences in adoption cost stem from grants that favor adoption of black babies, not a difference in “sticker price.” What needs to happen in every community is a “put up or shut up” philosophy. If the African American community will not step up and adopt these babies, they need to encourage others to adopt them, regardless of race. If Christian churches feel called to end abortion by increasing adoption, they need to create halfway houses, adoption agencies and supporting charities that facilitate adoptions of special needs babies. I have a hard time believing that lots infants are going straight into the foster care system with no hope of adoption. What has been happening most of the time is family units imploding and the sibling groups stagnating in the foster care system. Infants of any race that parents have relinquished their rights are quickly adopted, including special needs babies. Women who are concerned about this possibility could easily be referred to a number of private adoption agencies that will facilitate a quick transfer to a permanent home.
There needs to be a frank discussion of the compounding of errors that comes with keeping a baby you are not capable of mothering, and a re-examination of the virtues of adoption.
That said, I do have issues with the oppositional dynamic of “mother rights vs baby rights” and think that this issue should be tackled by the pro life community, not a slipstream that funnels women to the pro choice side.
Heather
“I do have issues with the oppositional dynamic of “mother rights vs baby rights” and think that this issue should be tackled by the pro life community, not a slipstream that funnels women to the pro choice side.”
Thanks for your comment, Rita. It seems to me that prohibiting a practice (like abortion) is different from forcing other actions (like mandatory ultrasounds, c-sections, etc). I can see how upholding the prohibition of abortion could be seen as a slippery-slope toward forced interventions, but that doesn’t necessarily HAVE to be the case.
Mommypotamus via Facebook
It appears I am a minority on my blog today.While I agree that we CAN AND SHOULD work together to reduce the number of abortions currently taking place, I am still pro-life.
Tarek
I mean no disrespect to the author, but I must take issue with the article on several grounds.
1. Making sweeping (and false) statements such as “societies have never agreed on the morality of abortion” weaken Julie’s argument considerably. Sure, abortions, like murder and pedophilia, have occurred everywhere and at all times throughout history, but that hardly means that societies have disputed the morality of each offense. See the difference? Are there any Irish reading this blog? What society has been more staunchly anti-abortion throughout the centuries than the Irish? Would any credible historian venture to say that abortion was a hotly disputed moral question during the thousand-year reign of the Holy Roman Empire? Not a chance.
2. Julie writes: “Let’s stop talking about the moral issue.” Let’s do that for a second (hypothetically, of course). I think it makes sense for couples to have a trial period once a child is born to see if parenthood suits them. If, after 60 days, the reproductive choice has been made that the lifetime commitment of parenthood is unpalatable, the baby can then be legally “put to sleep.” Anything wrong with that? It’s happened for millennia of course. Societies have NEVER agreed about the topic of infanticide *wink, wink*. Let’s remove the moral question, Julie, because our morals may be different. After all, the pro-choice movement “is about empowering women to be able to make their own reproductive choices, free from state interference, regardless of their belief system.” The baby is not viable at 60 days without maternal sustenance, biological or artificial. Therefore, I believe, like Obama, that no one should restrict post-partem reproductive rights either. If we don’t legalize this right to choose – and quick! – I worry that so many mothers who have children dying of SIDS may be convicted of murder. (How will you know if there is not a hidden motive?). That is why I am pro-infanticide. “I want infanticide to be perfectly safe, perfectly legal, readily available and never used.” After all, what is the difference between killing a child a few months before birth or a few months after? Shouldn’t we be allowed to take the kid for a test drive? Nothing is more important than reproductive rights, as far as I’m concerned. They must be protected.
I could have written your article from this angle rather easily.
3. The example of the woman who wanted a VBAC and was forced into a C-section actually undermines your argument. Think about it: Abortion is legal in Florida ALREADY. So, you are arguing that we must PROTECT the STATUS QUO (legalized abortion) so that the STATUS QUO (forced C-sections) will not happen in the future. The example is logically incongruent.
Furthermore, new legislation is already being proposed to eliminate home births for the reasons you mention; namely, the rights of the child to a healthy birth. The irony here is that this legislation is being proposed during a time in which civil law protects reproductive rights. You are arguing in favor of reproductive rights to ensure that these laws do not happen. The result is an insupportable argument.
Conclusion: Society cannot function without morals, and “laying aside morals” is not a solution to addressing a fundamentally moral question: that of murder. The question is, who is the final authority of good and evil? After all, a society WITHOUT morality is, by definition, not a society at all.
-Leigh Anne DuChene- via Facebook
If we are talking reproductive rights, I am pro-life, no way around it!
If we are talking birth, I am pro-natural birth choices!
So, it really depends on what EXACTLY is being referred to, it cannot all be lumped together into one general category of pro-choice or pro-life for most people!
Sam
Julie, I started to write you a response, but it was getting really long, so I decided to just post it on my blog, and then leave a link here in case you or anybody else wants to read it.
http://philochristos.blogspot.com/2010/09/re-pro-choice-perspective.html
Sam´s last [type] ..Re- A Pro-Choice Perspective
Heather
Sam, you make some very good points. Thanks for posting. I’m curious if you have any thoughts on the birth control pill. I wrote about it at http://www.mommypotamus.com/does-the-birth-control-pill-cause-abortions/
Sam
Heather, thanks for reading my blog. I know it was kind of long, so I appreciate that. I’ve read about half of your blog on the birth control pill. I’ll share my thoughts with you when I get enough time to read the whole thing and think about it, but I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring you.
Sam´s last [type] ..Re- A Pro-Choice Perspective
Laura
I’m with Mae on the fact that I didn’t want to comment on this post, but I feel compelled to do so. Others have summed up what I would say to a large degree, but I wanted to add a couple of things. I fail to understand how you can take morality out of this argument. If “no one debates or disputes what abortion fundamentally is” – i.e., taking the life of another human being – how can that be anything other than a moral issue?
I also don’t agree with the bit about giving the baby personhood status taking away all our rights relating to birth. The fact is that things like home birth, VBAC, etc. are no different than other parental rights issues like vaccination, cosleeping, and homeschooling. As the parent, we have the right to make choices about our child’s healthcare, and that includes pregnancy and birth. Does the government jump in that arena and do things they shouldn’t? Absolutely. But I refuse to allow fear of big government overstepping their boundaries to push me into supporting abortion as a legal choice. Did you know that here in Texas the law already *does* define personhood as beginning at conception? The Texas Penal Code Title 1, Chapter 1.07 makes this definition:
“Individual” means a human being who is alive, including an unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth.
Abortion is made legal by exempting physicians from prosecution for killing a baby with the mother’s consent. (I’m having a hard time digging up the statute on that one at the moment, but if it’s important to someone, I can find it tomorrow.)
Read
I’m with Laura on this one. The answer here is that Texas (at least) has already defined when Life begins (as far as a legal status anyway). Before I continue, let me quote from one of our founding documents:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men…
The sole reason for ANY government to exist is to secure these inalienable Rights! Life, Liberty, etc. So, IF Life begins at conception (or heartbeat, or whenever), then it is the JOB of government to protect that Right to be alive and once that Life becomes a mature individual, to preserve its Liberty to make choices on its own.
This does not conflict with keeping Government OUT of our role as parents to freely choose HOW to bring up our children.
Let’s keep Government OUT of the many things it should NOT be doing and let’s encourage it to actually DO the things it should be doing.
Riley
Read,
Perfect! 1million% agreed!
Melodie
Bravo! I think you’ve done a wonderful job of expressing the pro-choice stance to any pro-life readers. You did it respectfully and informatively. I loved it.
Melodie´s last [type] ..Understanding Nutritionism And The Problem With Infant Formula
Des
I’m torn because being an educated, well read woman who is very much all about human rights, I accept your argument. I’ve always hated the labels pro-life, pro-choice; when I see people protesting outside of abortion clinics I cringe. I have and will always be in the camp of fighting for alternatives, not necessarily fighting for the elimination of abortion. Though don’t get me wrong, I would be very happy if it was, but that is in a perfect world.
Yes, I agree w/Joy (who is a dear friend BTW) people are going to have sex and there are going to be unwanted pregnancies. Hell, I have MARRIED friends who have had unwanted pregnancies. I agree with Penny in the fact that eliminating abortion will not eliminate abortion. I mean, we’ve all seen “These Walls Could Talk” on HBO haven’t we? I FULLY and WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with you in the fact that eliminating abortion will only come when “pro-lifer’s” stop just preaching and shoving the Bible down people’s throats and say “Give me your child! I can give your baby a chance to live!”
I say this with conviction because I’ve been there. I’ve committed myself to an 18 year old African American girl (a sister of a friend) who had already scheduled her abortion. I committed to raising her child and although in the end she did not go through with it and now that little baby is a gorgeous 2 year old, every time I see her I am thrilled with her life and the part I played in her being here because I was wiling to not just talk. My willingness to raise her baby was part of what gave her pause and stopped her from making an emotional decision that was mainly there based from pressure from her boyfriend.
I just wanted to tell that story, not because I’m patting myself on the back, but because I want to demonstrate that I STRONGLY believe in what you are saying.
Here is where I can’t totally jump on your bandwagon though. I cannot and will never be able to separate fact from rhetoric. Abortion eliminates life and fractures the life of the mother and I will not support any cause that deems that acceptable. I have known many women who have had abortions (some multiple) and I do not know of one who went through the process unscathed; who do not think of what could have been; who do not keep a mental calculation of how old their child would have been. Even if they don’t “regret it”, they are still fractured.
As a currently pregnant woman (and mom of 2) who has dealt with miscarriage and preterm labor, the issue of the “sanctity of life” is quite real in my life.
), even at 9 or 10 weeks, I saw how formed it was. Reading about its development, I realized that I would never be able to take the child out of the equation.
Before having a child, I was very much pro-choice. I was exactly like you described and even if I didn’t agree with abortion morally, the bottom line was I felt restriction/eliminating it was a first step in government restriction that would eventually cripple and strangle this nation of our independence and freedom. But having a child and becoming pregnant changed me.
I began to stop thinking about the “political implications” and just thought about the child inside me.
Watching my baby move on the ultrasound (sorry Heather, I have ultrasounds
All of that to say, I will always throw my hat in the ring that sides with promoting life over a political agenda.
Des´s last [type] ..Is There a Belgian Nanny 911
Heather
Des – Wow, thank you for sharing. I can’t even fathom what it would be like to see that little toddler and know you had a hand in her being here today.
It sounds like you have given considerable thought to the issue and I agreed with much of what you said. How sad that when we lived in the same metroplex I never asked you to meet for coffee!
Joy
Shout out to you, Des! I always appreciate your perspective and you made a strong point.
Katie
Wow! That was a really good perspective I’ve never heard pro-choice in that light…food for thought.
Toni Lamn via Facebook
That was really GREAT!
Sam
I just wanted to add one more thought to what I’ve said already. Julie, if I’m understanding you correctly, the whole purpose of your blog is to persuade both pro-life and pro-choice people to work together to reduce abortions. With that being the case, it seems to me that it would be a big mistake for us to quit talking about the moral issue of abortion as you suggest. Since you posted your blog, a number of people have commented that while they are personally opposed to abortion, they are nevertheless pro-choice because they think people ought to have the legal right to do it anyway. And some of them have said that they themselves would never have an abortion. That means morality does reduce abortions. If your goal is really to reduce the number of abortions, then you ought to ENCOURAGE discussion and debate about the moral issue. If we can convince more people that abortion is immoral, we can reduce the number of abortions without outlawing it. More people will choose life simply because it’s the right thing to do.
Sam´s last [type] ..Re- A Pro-Choice Perspective
Katie Guy
Julie,
I have to say I couldn’t disagree with you more. There are several points brought up in your post I would like to address.
Religion and morals… Abortion is not a religious or moral issue. It is a Civil Liberties issue. Insert, slavery into everything you have said about abortion and you have a completely different blog post, horrified readers and media attention. If we focus on it as a Civil Liberty issue, the pro-choice argument dissolves into thin air.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”
You can’t have liberty and the pursuit of happiness without life. The abortion mentality is exactly what caused this screwed up system in the first place. The system where a sheriff came out and put a laboring woman in shackles for a forced c-section. I am a mother of 5 children the last three VBAC homebirths. I have also been a victim of a false CPS case full of lies made against us by a doctor, so I “get” this scenario. Allowing the rights of some members of society (rights that are not there because of a law) to be taken away to protect the rights of other members of society is not the answer. This only creates a society that doesn’t value rights, period. This created the society that allowed a laboring woman to be forced to have a c-section. You can’t have a society that values a woman’s right to homebirth if the society doesn’t value the rights of a woman to even be born. There is no foundation to build on. It is precisely because of our rights as women that we need to stand up for the rights of all people. If we care about our right to homebirth, not vaccinate, breastfeed, grow our own food, homeschool, etc. than we sure as hell better stand up for the rights of those who can’t even speak for themselves. We have to let go of fear and selfishness and protect the rights of all humans if we want to keep our own rights.
Half of all fetus’s aborted are women. What about their choice? What about their reproductive rights? At the time of being aborted those females have all of their reproductive organs. Where is their choice? Google Gianna Jessen.
Adoption…have you ever worked at a crisis pregnancy center? Do you know that this option is being used in the pro-life community everyday? If you want to do something to ensure adoption is secured as a viable option then go get trained to be a sidewalk counselor. Stand outside the abortion clinic and counsel these women to have their baby and put it up for adoption because once they set foot into the clinic adoption is no longer an option. There is no choice once inside an abortion clinic. These 13, 14, 15 year old scared little girls are manipulated into abortion thousands of times a day.
Black babies…I agree with your statistics about the amount of black babies that are aborted compared to white babies, 5 times more likely. This statistic comes directly from the Alan Guttmacher Institute, an arm of Planned Parenthood. What isn’t talked about is why??? Why are so many more black pregnancies ended by abortion? Well, Planned Parenthood’s founder was a racist, eugenicist. She employed the help of one of Hitlers eugenicist at the inception of Planned Parenthood. In her book ‘Pivot of Civilization’ she called for the elimination of human weeds: “for the cessation of charity, for the segregation of morons, misfits, and maladjusted,” and for the sterilization of “genetically inferior races”. She also said in ‘Women and the New Race’, “The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it” She specifically opened her “clinics” in poor, black neighborhoods for this reason. Now they are being opened in poor, hispanic neighborhoods as well. If you want to help reduce the number of abortions performed on black women, go into these areas, educate the people. Look up http://blackgenocide.org/home.html Learn the statistics and inform these communities. Between 1882 and 1968 3,446 Blacks were lynched in the U.S. In less than 3 days of abortions that number is surpassed. Since 1973 over 13 million Black children have been killed by abortion and their mothers victimized. The Black community as a whole has given over 4 billion dollars to the abortion industry. As white people we need to get over our attitude that this problem can be solved by adopting these babies. We need to get out of our comfort zone and help these women where they are at. Go to their communities, help educate them. Abortion is not the answer and adoption isn’t the only other way. It is perfectly acceptable to help these poor, uneducated women keep their babies. In fact, that is almost always the best choice.
Sing up to be a Gabriel’s Angel. Adopt one of these women who has found herself in an unplanned pregnancy and wants to keep her baby.
Men & Responsibility…reproductive choice happens in the bedroom. Men and women choose to open themselves up to the possibility of a child the moment they consent to sexual intercourse. This has nothing to do with religion or morals either. It’s scientific fact. Abortion is used primarily as back up birth control when some other method fails. Men need to stand up and take responsibility for their children. The illusion of pro-choice only gives men an easy out. On the other hand, I never hear the pro-choice movement speak about the fathers choice or rights. Your movement has taken away a fathers rights to have their child be born. There are many men who never wanted their child aborted. Where was their choice? These men regret lost fatherhood. http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/
I know countless numbers of women that have had abortions and choice had nothing to do with it. These women are scarred for life. It deeply saddens me to read your post. It saddens me even more to read all the reply’s of people who share your point of view and even more so how many more people may be duped into this lie. Mainly because the pro-life community, as a whole, is NOT doing their job. More than half of America considers themselves pro-life and yet we can only get a handful of the same people day after day at the abortion clinics. These women and girls need this ‘choice’ you champion in this blog. They need to hear this ‘choice’ at the clinic and the only place they will here it is from a pro-life volunteer standing outside to help save them from a becoming a second victim of abortion. People, like yourself and the numerous commentors, who call themselves pro-choice, need to understand that this ‘choice’ hurts women too. The billions of women every year who choose abortion are the walking wounded. There is no reason for them to be this way. I completely agree with you that the ‘pro-choice’ movement is not my enemy. It is the lie they believe that is the enemy of the unborn baby. I know you would probably say that using the word enemy is divisive, but if you can’t call a philosophy that wants for it to be legal for someone to be murdered an enemy who should you call an enemy? As pro-life people we stand up and proclaim this philosophy “enemy” for the unborn, the helpless who can not speak for themselves. Of course, you are not my enemy nor is any other pro-abortion or pro-choice person and I will stand with anyone of you and cry with you if you make the ‘choice’ of abortion. We will be there for you outside the abortion clinic after you have made this ‘choice’ to welcome you with open arms and to shower you with love and let you know there is still hope.
Heather
Katie – WOW, you make some excellent points here. I’m embarrassed that I did not even remember to consider a father’s rights when I read this post. Honestly, it’s been so long since I’ve met anyone on the “other side” of the debate that I think I’ve forgotten everything past argument #1.
Thanks for letting us know about The Gabriel Network (http://www.projectgabriel.net/). I’ve never heard of ANYTHING like this before, but it seem so obvious and logical now that you mention it.
Des
Katie- I’m giving you a standing laptop computer ovation
Des´s last [type] ..14 Weeks Pregnant
Mae
HELL YES!!!! And there’s Katie Guy ladies and gentlemen!!!
Thank you lovely, lovely woman. Hope to see you at the march for Life this January with my baby belly and my little one in my arms ;]
Mae´s last [type] ..My Life in Bullets
Joanna Moore
katie-
wow. you have totally spoken truth. not that i had jumped over to the “pro-choice” camp, but i did allow fear to creep in and convince me that if abortion was banned then other rights that i value would be taken away, which i have been convicted of in the last day or two since reading this post. abortion is murder, period. and like another poster mentioned, we shouldn’t let the fear of losing our rights keep us from protecting innocent life. another flaw i realized with this post is that it appears to assume that all these american christian pro-lifers who can/want to adopt are white. there are plenty of black american christian pro-lifers who can adopt black babies. i’m not saying that inter-racial adoption is wrong, i’m just pointing out what seems to be a bit of bias.
and yes, i’ve always felt like these fathers deserve to have a choice as well to be able to protect their children, despite the fact that the mother is carrying them in “HER body.” thank you for all the valuable information you presented as well. a lot to chew on for sure!
Joanna Moore´s last [type] ..What my messy house means to me
Hannah Tallo
I have kept up with the comments but have been a little frightened to comment myself. I’m still forming my opinion on all this but I could not agree more with Katie! I also think one thing that is important to point out is that if we TRULY believe this (that children are a blessing from the Lord and that life is to be valued NO matter the situation) then we would embrace our own children, born and unborn. We say we are pro-life and want to help stop abortion yet only want to have 2 kids because we think that’s all we can handle. I grew up in a large family and while my parents didn’t picket at abortion clinics we were taught to value life. I don’t think you can seperate ethics and an issue like abortion. In my opionion it is an ethical issue! My sister works at a crisis pregnancy center and they daily work with young pregnant girls to offer then options like adoption. Katie also lives out here life message, she has lots of little children running around and daily makes sacrifices that show she values life in all forms.
I’m glad this is something being brought up because I DO agree that christians often judge but don’t want to get there hands dirty in the daily stuff. I agree we need to do more but I don’t think this issue will EVER be solved apart from our country learning to again value life and the family as a whole. There is no longer a need in most people’s eyes for family, a father and mother. These girl’s I am sure do not have loving active Dad’s and partners who they have been expressed unconditional love from or they wouldn’t be scared for there life to not terminate there pregnancy. I do understand that most of this is my opinion but there seems to be alot of this going around so I thought I would throw mine in!
Hannah Tallo´s last [type] ..Whats Cookin
Riley
De-Myth-defying the Missed!
Myth #1- Pro-Choice doesn’t really mean Pro-Abortion
Truth: Pro-life is pro-life. You might try being a little more direct about your stance (if you actually believe what you’ve written about not wanting anyone to commit murder upon the only innocents in this world) and tell the world that **you are PRO-life and ANTI-Government! BTW, as much as I appreciate this point of view, I have never ever heard anyone use it and call themselves pro-choice- I’m just sayin. I am pro-life and anti-government intervention *except in certain cases- like murder and school zones… some people actually need to have morality dictated to them- God help us!
Myth #2 Abortion is not about the life of the unborn
Truth: Abortion is about the death of innocent life. The truth is ENTIRELY about the unborn’s right to life.
Julie,
I find your statistics of great interest. I find anything that demonizes a man of one skin color to promote the life of a man of another skin color impossible to palate. According to the US Census, 2009- 35% of women who gave birth were unwed. 1.66M babies born to unwed mothers (out of 4.5M). You can say what you want about relationships and an individual’s right to have sex out of wedlock- I’m not here to debate that. But let me ask you: when you were a teenager, how many girls did you go to school with that were pure? How many that were promiscuous? (BTW, promiscuous comes from Latin meaning possessed or pro-mix: isn’t that interesting… possessed!)
1. Having casual sexual relations frequently with different partners; indiscriminate in the choice of sexual partners.
2. Lacking standards of selection; indiscriminate.
3. Casual; random.
4. Consisting of diverse, unrelated parts or individuals; confused:
*Thanks to thefreedictionary.com for the definitions!
So the girls that were possessed, indiscriminate, and confused… how many of them had solid home lives and a moral compass to keep them from being confused? How many of them were involved in extra-curricular activities? And how many of them grew up in homes with both parents (one man/ one woman) married (to each other) and providing a stable base from which to explore life? How many were Christians? And I’m not talking – ‘oh, yeah… I’m an American… we’re ALL christians… I’m talking had an intimate personal relationship with Christ!?
On the contrary, how many of them came from single parent families? How many of their mothers had 7 kids with 5 different (random) fathers and worked 3 jobs just to pay the 5 cent co-pay for a meal ticket and therefore didn’t have time to kiss them goodnight, much less teach them and be a mentor or provide a moral compass?
I’m not saying there aren’t exceptions, but let’s just ask the simple questions and get our thought juices flowing – since Heather isn’t blogging to get some salivary juices flowing!
Myth #3: Conversations regarding abortion should be about unwanted kids
Truth: The real problem here isn’t what to do with the kids (it IS a real problem) but rather, how do we treat the kids that we already have!? It’s not about the quantity of kids that we can raise, but about the quality of the kids we can raise, and that is a direct relationship to the quality of attention we give them. Each may have their own love language and time or gifts or service may impact the quality of their happiness differently, but if you seriously care about the life of the unborn child, help the mother BEFORE she gets pregnant!
Myth #4: Planned Parenthood is both Planned and Parenthood
Truth: Planned Parenthood is the number one killer of babies, and their primary source of income is in making sure you do NOT become a parent- by committing abortion. Nobody in their right mind plans an abortion. Confused, indiscriminate, possessed victims are a different story, and this company that steals over $70M GROSS profits from our country needs to be the next one to be ‘aborted’. (Gross is the amount that you put in the bank account after all of the expenses are paid, so they’re making GROSS profits!)
I’ve been to planned parenthood, and I’ll tell you, it is not a pleasant experience!
According to pro-choice.org, over 1/3 of women alive will have an abortion during their lifetime, but how many of your friends have told you about theirs? Is it that it’s not a big deal? Or is this something that affects 100% of the black teenage girls, and none of the girls that you know? Sorry Charlie! The US Census Bureau doesn’t publish abortions because they don’t want to involve in the politics and it’s not an easy number to swallow, but the times I went to Planned Parenthood, I was in a predominantly white neighborhood in upstate New York, I believe the clinic was in Peekskill? There were a few token white guys, but we were pretty outnumbered. I think the biggest population at that particular clinic was easily black females from 15-30. The US Census Bureau does solidify that finding in their publications regarding fertility of American women by race… http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/fertility/cps2006.html table 4 comparison of white to black…
It shows that while 57.7% of children born to white women were born to mothers aged under 30, a whopping 70.4% for the same group if black. I’m compelled to consider that the real issue is not race neutral and that the right answer is life, and it has to start with investing in the people who have the best shot at offering these kids a loving, whole home- Their very own birth parents! We NEED to be investing in the trouble-makers! It is out of hurt, feelings of being unwanted and ignored that people act destructively- without a basic understanding of human psychology, we will never solve the real issue. What was once a nation of family christian values has become a culture of death, obsessed with death, and we WILL reap what we sow.
If I’m wrong and you actually do love big government I urge you to consider this:
what if instead of being dead all those babies had paid into social security? Would our grandparents have a concern? Would there be enough money for us to withdraw what we put in?
In Summary, LOVE SOMEONE! They need it more than you know!
Riley
oh, and one thing I meant to change in this before I posted it… single moms/dads- I honor and respect you. Nobody should have to go through the challenges of raising a child or multiple children on their own. Having your own child(ren) in your house is a good basis for an infinitely better situation for them than the alternative. I hope I have not in any way suggested otherwise or offended those of you who are facing this impossible task. And for those of you who are single parents and raising kids that are not your own, wow!
For those of us who are not ready to go adopt a black baby, I would like to offer another option- HELP the single parents! Find someone in your circle or outside your circle who has the challenge of raising kids and do something to support them! Take them some groceries so that they don’t have to go to the store in the middle of all of it, or if you’re daring enough, take care of the kids for a night once in a while so the parent(s- cause we could all use a break!) can get a night of rest and maybe some personal space without demands on them. Having demands for your time and attention and affection every minute of everyday is impossible- and these single parents NEED our HELP more than they have the time to confess. I’m not saying ignore the kids, but we have to take a holistic approach to any problem we want to actually solve. We can’t leave it to the government to dictate parenthood and mentoring and loving one another, like the church has left it to the government to feed and clothe and house the homeless. It’s time to take action!
With immense love and respect for people who are taking steps to reduce abortion, hate, burnout, and corn syrup!
~Riley
MRD
Love your perspective. I’ve always been pro-choice but have never even thought about some of what you shed light on. Thank you.
Carol
Tarek-that about sums up this discussion, doesn’t it? Funny how no one chose to counter your post. Very well written. I was almost starting to re-think (not change, however) my personal choice of being pro-life. Thank you for clearing up some of the article’s inaccuracy that was disguised by fancy wording and a hear-say story created to tug on the readers’ emotional heart strings. I feel somewhat cheated by the author after combing the article with a fine-toothed comb.
Katie Guy-I couldn’t agree with you more. Thank you.
Who Should Leave Comments on This Site? - Renew My Mind
[...] aim for the marriage of love and truth. As I said in a blog comment elsewhere: But this is why we need a marriage of compassion and truth. Without truth, our love bails people [...]
Komal
This is a great post. Thanks for it
Laura
I think Katie Guy summed it up quite well. This “guest poster” is seriously deceived, and I truly hope that the veil is lifted from her eyes one day. Am I correct in reading your comment, Heather, that although you disagree with abortion, you believe it should be legal?
Heather
It has been a long time since I read the comments on this post Laura so I am not sure which statement you are referring to, but no I definitely do not believe abortion should be legal.
BritWoman
I know this is an old post, but I couldn’t not reply. There are many points I want to make, and they may not “flow” well into each other!
Firstly, I’m so thankful that some people are at least recognising that despite fundamental disagreements, both “pro life” and “pro choice” want fewer abortions. No abortions, preferably!
But some commenters seem to me to have missed the point – when they/you talk about your religion and your God, my ears switch off. I am not in that world, so your words don’t “apply” to me. I feel like “here we go again” and all the old arguments come back to life.
A note on semantics – “pro abortion” would mean forced abortions of e.g. teenagers. “Pro choice” is exactly that.
I have had an abortion. Some of you will now think me a murderer. But had I not had that choice, I would now be trapped in an abusive situation, with no livelihood, no home, no means to feed and clothe myself or the child. So two lives would be destroyed. So I sit here in pain and grief, but at least I am the only one suffering now.
Despite my agony – and it is agony – I would *never* presume to tell another woman what her path should be let alone put it into law.
Will you do the same for me?
Heather
BritWoman – I am deeply sorry for what you have suffered. Not just the loss of life, but the abuse, the agony of it all.
I agree with Katie Guy (comment below) that abortion is not a religious issue. It is a civil rights issue. The fallacy that “fetuses” are not “people” now is now extending to newborn babies in the minds of ethicists (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/ethicists-argue-in-favor-of-after-birth-abortions-as-newborns-are-not-persons/). In the words of the famous Dr. Seuss “People are people, no matter how small.”
I can’t say what I would never presume to do so since I already done far too many things I am ashamed of which I previously believed myself incapable of committing, but as a culture we presume to tell people what their paths should NOT be all the time. That’s what laws against rape, theft and the like are.
The ‘Pro-Choice’ Movement is Not My Enemy
[...] The Mommypotamus, a pretty popular blog amongst the holistic community, had a guest blogger post about abortion and [...]
Shalonne
This was a very well written article and much more convincing than the people who march outside the local planned parenthood clinic showing horrendous photos of partial birth abortions. They give reasonable pro-choice people like yourself a bad reputation and, it’s a shame. Thanks for sharing your opinions on such a controversial subject. I’ve had a hard time “declaring” what side of the debate that I’m on since the thought of ending a baby’s life is abhorrent to me, but, like you said, I do realize women would just find other, less safe, options. I agree, the best thing is to reduce the need for abortion. We also have been considering adoption and after reading your post I now see that the best thing we could do would be to adopt an African American baby. Very good information – thanks again!